Broken or Toxic People

Toxic teachings can confuse us into believing that enduring pain is a virtue. Many Christian women have been taught to bury their emotions, silencing their true feelings in the name of peace. But it’s time to break free from these harmful beliefs.

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Suffering doesn’t equal strength. Recognizing our worth means embracing our feelings, not pushing them aside.

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Kris Reece is a counselor, coach, author, and speaker who has spent over 30 years studying toxic relationships professionally, enduring them personally, and discerning them biblically. Today, she helps Christians break free from manipulation, set boundaries that actually stick, and conquer codependency without losing their faith or sanity in the process.

Kris is also the author of her latest book Breaking the Narcissist’s Grip, helping readers break free from emotional control and reclaim their God given life from takers.

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Transcript

Amanda Davison (00:00)
By the end of this episode, you're gonna know the difference between broken and toxic people, boundaries and discernment, the biblical principles for responding to toxicity, the three Rs that make any relationship work, and the one word that gets rid of confusion. Girls, let's get brave.

Kris Reece (00:17)
I grew up under ⁓ religious I I I hate to use the word oppression, but that's what it was. It was like it was all the rules. It was the religious rules. It was the Lutheran rules. It was everything you had to follow and

My stepfather made sure that I knew that if he didn't catch me doing something wrong, God would. So, you know, it was more of the fear of God than it was the love of God. Now don't get me wrong, of course we we need to have the fear of God. There's too many of us running around with the love of God and absolutely no fear or or reverence. But yeah, I I grew up with that and all those rules, you know, you just need to do this, you just need to do that. You weren't allowed to have feelings, you weren't allowed to have hurts, you weren't allowed to have emotions.

You weren't allowed to be going through anything, you just needed to put a spiritual bandage over a major hemorrhage.

Amanda Davison (01:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And call it good and just don't look at it. And just if it keeps bleeding or if it yeah, just pray about it. Right.

Kris Reece (01:15)
Or worse, it's your fault. That's what

I grew up with. That that was mostly like if something's wrong, what did you do wrong? And again, don't get me wrong, there's always going to be truth in that. Remember, the enemy comes at us with lies that are founded and grounded in some truth. So there's always gonna be some truth. None of us are perfect, so we're coming into this, and of course we've probably done our part, but that doesn't mean that it's entirely our fault.

Amanda Davison (01:41)
Yes, right.

I oftentimes think about the fact that I'm I'm now I'm 43 and I'm having to untangle.

So much of what I've been taught, and I'm old. How many years is that that I've been following the Lord? I don't know. I'm bad at math. 43 minus 29. You can do that. But you know, it's like, whoa. And you know, I think we were talking before I hit record. I think part of that is the awareness of my inability to see it in myself. I didn't know that I.

Kris Reece (02:03)
Yeah.

Mm. ⁓

Amanda Davison (02:17)
was not living from this place rooted in

God's word and his spirit. I was living out of a place that was clothed with additional things that was keeping me in bondage. And that's that's literally why we're having these conversations. And because you work with women all the time who are discovering this within themselves and within their relationships. So actually, why don't we start there? I want to know. I mean, so much. I I told you'll hear in this episode where to find.

Kris Reece (02:32)
Right.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well.

Amanda Davison (02:52)
Chris, she's she's linked below, all of her social media, everything she posts, I'm like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. That's why so many people follow you. It's so rich, it's so needed, and it cuts to the chase. Why don't and this is your specialty? Like, tell us what I know, sadly. I know, I know, but it's so important. But along these lines of as a Christian woman, so many of us are taught to just bury.

Kris Reece (03:09)
Sadly.

Amanda Davison (03:20)
what's real. Bury your thoughts, your experiences, your feelings, your questions, your, you know, opinions. Just bury them down. Don't cause any chaos in this situation. Just keep the peace. And we're essentially, I feel like, a lot of times told to just put up with everything. So even in the even abuse, by the way, even abuse.

Kris Reece (03:39)
Mm.

Amanda Davison (03:44)
So many Christian women do not even understand what abuse is, all the different forms. ⁓ but how do you see these toxic teachings of just like enduring the harm? It's our cross to bear hurting women.

Kris Reece (04:00)
Amanda, that could not be a more loaded question. We've got so many tentacles and I hope you don't mind a couple of rabbit trails that will probably go down because it's got so many dynamics to it. Toxic teaching hurts women because it trains them to confuse suffering with godliness.

Amanda Davison (04:17)
Say that again. It trains women.

Kris Reece (04:18)
Toxic teaching

hurts women because it trains them to confuse suffering with godliness, silence with submission. So we have these conflicting messages that are taking place. So what I've noticed with a lot of, especially Christian women, they're not oblivious. They're not sitting here wondering, hey, I don't think this is abuse.

This doesn't feel abusive. And now suddenly somebody reveals to them that it is. They know deep within them. I mean, God's spirit is residing inside of you, and he gives you discernment, he gives you wisdom. You know when something's off, but we tend to now override it. So a lot of times we're gonna override our God-given discernment with three things: either our own voice.

Our own past or the enemy.

Amanda Davison (05:19)
Mm.

Kris Reece (05:20)
So and now even when the enemy comes in, because a lot of times we just want to blame him, all of his lies now are gonna come in and they're just gonna piggyback the lies that we've been taught. He's not gonna come out of the clear blue sky and say, I don't know, something absolutely crazy like women, Christian women are supposed to be wearing purple shawls all the time, otherwise you're not a believer. I mean, i i we wouldn't believe it, but he he piggybacks on the lies that we've been taught.

And a lot of times we've been taught that being Christ-like means I gotta tolerate mistreatment. I mean, that's what Jesus did. No, he didn't. No, he didn't. No, he didn't. He didn't, he wasn't even sent to the cross. Jesus went to the cross. That's what we're not understanding. Is like he did not tolerate abuse all in the name of love. He didn't tolerate mistreatment.

Amanda Davison (05:57)
Right. I know. Where we get that? Yeah.

Kris Reece (06:16)
All in the name of love. A lot of times he tolerated mistreatment in the in in in wisdom, meaning, don't answer a fool according to his folly. Like, why am I gonna bother here? Do not cast your pearls before swine. So I know that when I'm in the middle of an argument or in the middle of a discussion, or somebody's having a throw down with me, and I have that wisdom check that goes, What am I doing here? Like, this is not worth my time.

This is that this is not somebody where a healthy debate is even going to make any kind of headway with, then I stopped talking. I'm done. That doesn't mean I'm tolerating mistreatment. I may stay in the I may stay engaged in the conversation. I may continue in the relationship, but there are going to be some serious boundaries, external and internal. And those are the biggest ones that a lot of women don't recognize is those internal boundaries are just as important as the external ones.

Amanda Davison (06:54)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (07:13)
Not allowing those lies to penetrate, not allowing yourself the time to do, like Romans 12, 2 says, be transformed by the renewing of our minds. So we're not in the word, we're not in wise counsel, we're just bouncing between the lies and what we want to believe, which is actually the truth. So we're taught so many different things, and that's just number one. Number two, never confront sin.

Do not approach somebody. You're gonna make them uncomfortable. They're gonna be upset with you. That's just not very nice. You get me started on the word nice and we're gonna be down we're gonna be on here for another hour. You know, we talk about this niceness as if that is some Christian virtue. You know, niceness simply means pleasant and agreeable.

Amanda Davison (07:50)
Ha ha ha

Right.

Mm.

Kris Reece (08:02)
And what I learned also was, I forget when this was, many, many years ago, telling somebody they were nice was an insult because it meant they had no personal conviction of their own. That's what nice means. So we think it's not nice to confront sin. Now you endlessly sacrifice for yourself. You keep the peace at all costs. And the problem is, is now along the way that this biblical love is getting distorted.

Amanda Davison (08:10)
Hmm.

Wow.

Kris Reece (08:31)
We go from self-sacrifice, which is biblical, and we equate that to self-erasure, self-editing. And these are just simply not true.

Amanda Davison (08:38)
Yes.

Yes. And then you see women ⁓ depressed, anxious, in relationships that are unhealthy, and they can't pinpoint what is going on, whether it's a mom or a sister or whoever coworker, spouse, whoever it might be, but this is this is why they feel that way. There's something that they've been believing that isn't actually.

the truth and they have because they haven't made sense of that quite yet, because I do believe, you know, there's clarity is so necessary. And sometimes when, you know, like you do, Chris too, like there's so many women and real I wanna say like maybe marriages would be a good example where

They're they're surrounded by the dysfunction daily, so it's hard to see clearly, right? And but that's what's needed. And that's why we're having these conversations. Because then, you know, you don't you can't fix, God can't fix what we don't share, what we don't reveal. We we can't move forward if we don't know where we are right now, right? so I think it'd be helpful for you to define, I want to define.

Kris Reece (09:50)
Yes.

That's right. Yep.

Amanda Davison (10:02)
Well, I don't want to I want you to define what how you would define a toxic person and then a toxic relationship so that anyone listening can pinpoint yep or mm, I don't think so, you know, for themselves.

Kris Reece (10:18)
Mm. So one of the things that we I want to get into healthy versus unhealthy, but before we end our time together, I want to be able to give your audience that one word that gives away everything and will put an end to confusion and that mental torment. That is one word. There's one word. So before we dive into that word.

Amanda Davison (10:37)
Yes, I'm I'm ready already. Okay. Okay.

Kris Reece (10:44)
I think the first thing we need to think of in terms of defining healthy or unhealthy is understanding that we all have flaws. And in doing that, actually that can trip us up a little bit. Because if I have some flaws, you know, I got moments where, you know, I'm pretty selfish, I'm immature, and I do a I I do a lot of content on narcissistic people. Not necessarily narcissistic personality disorder, just narcissistic traits.

And I'm gonna be honest with you, sometimes when I'm like fleshing out this material, I'm like, ooh, I think that was me. Like I think there's a little bit of me in there. And what what we really want to understand is we're all gonna have flaws, we're all gonna have some narcissistic tendencies sometimes. But toxic behavior is usually a repeated pattern that consistently reproduces confusion, manipulation, division, chaos, intimidation, dishonesty, or emotional harm in relationships.

And it's not a

It's not a one-time flaw. It's not a mistake. It's not something that I know is going on within me and I'm working on. It's not just a brokenness, which, if you don't mind, I want to talk to that for just a second because a lot of p times people want to understand what's the difference between broken and toxic. So meaning if they're broken, then I have to tolerate them, right? Because we're all broken. And if they're toxic, then

I apply Second Timothy one seven or is it first Timothy one seven five seven? ⁓ I hate it. Anyway, where he makes a list of all those people and he says, Avoid these people, right?

Amanda Davison (12:24)
I

think it's is it Second Timothy 3, maybe? I could be wrong. Maybe it's both. Maybe it's in chapter chapter. Okay, I'm going to.

Kris Reece (12:29)
Well, now we're gonna have to look it up. Okay, so while I'm talking, you look it up. ⁓ I I don't know

why I just it's I like I quote that scripture all the time. In the last days, there will be times of trouble, persecution, there will be people who are slanderous, lovers of self, lovers of money, and it goes on and on and on in the list, and it says to avoid these people. So we assume that if somebody is broken, then I'm called to endure with them. Remember Galatians six.

Tells us that we are to carry one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. But just two verses after or before, it's each one should carry their own load, right? So it causes a lot of conflict there. And when we look at broken relationships and we look at broken people, there can be broken that you walk the journey with.

And then there can be broken that leads to toxic.

Amanda Davison (13:30)
Say that again.

Kris Reece (13:31)
There is broken that we walk with, and there can be broken that leads to toxic. So somebody can be broken, and they recognize their brokenness, but they're not doing anything about it. They're justifying their behavior, they're justifying their manipulation, they're justifying their excuses. And what's happening is they're slipping further and further down that toxic slope.

Amanda Davison (13:36)
Mm.

Kris Reece (13:56)
And w what I also compare it to is like when the Holy Spirit tells us about a deadened conscience. So if we are convicted of sin and we continue to ignore that, well, guess what? We're gonna feel less and less convicted. Why? Not because we're okay, but because our conscience is now being deadened. That is not a good place to be. So a broken person that keeps sliding down that toxic trail.

simply because they're labeling it as broken now starts to slip into that toxic category. Now, we also look at broken people and they can actually be broken but cause toxicity. So intent doesn't negate impact ever. So if your broken behaviors now are getting toxified on me, well we have a problem here.

Amanda Davison (14:39)
Mm. Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Kris Reece (14:53)
So we don't want to automatically assume that just because somebody is broken, that must have been from God because that wasn't even part of what I was originally thinking. I just we have that misconception. And we started our talk with talking about all of these misconceptions and these lies. So how do we determine, okay, are they broken or are they toxic? But even if they're broken, doesn't necessarily mean that God is calling you to walk that journey with them.

Amanda Davison (15:19)
Hmm, that's really helpful. I I just made a post on ⁓ the idea of you know, like common phrases that Christians will use to dismiss

Accountability and that was one of them like well we're we all sin, you know, we all fall short. ⁓ who who are you to cat throat? Yeah, so it it is that's that distinction is very helpful for people listening and me, it's really helpful. anything else that you wanna share regarding like toxic relationships?

Kris Reece (15:34)
Mm.

Which is true.

You know, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to talk about the healthy relationship because we sit there and we talk about the toxicity, right? I can I can tell when a person's sick. You're sniffling, you're throwing up, you've got, you know, bloodshot eyes, you're hunched over. I I it's easier to spot a toxic person. But what we want to look for is healthy and healthy biblical love.

Amanda Davison (16:00)
Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

Kris Reece (16:25)
Is going to include these things, right? Truth, wisdom, and discernment. And sometimes distance.

Amanda Davison (16:34)
Mm.

Kris Reece (16:36)
So we're looking for healthy biblical love, not only from others, but from ourselves. So one of the things that so many women, especially Christians, struggle with is codependency. We hate that word, and we think the other person is codependent, but you can't have the codependent without the co-it's together thing. Like we've got this toxic tango that's taking place.

Amanda Davison (16:43)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (17:02)
And I'm feeding off of you, you're feeding off of me, my toxic is feeding off of you, and vice versa. So when we look at toxic relationships, they are constantly causing division, they're constantly causing emotional harm. They are always leaving you questioning yourself. And they do not allow you to have the freedom to be yourself, especially in your mistakes.

When you're with somebody who uses your mistakes as leverage, that is not a healthy relationship. That's not just a broken person. This is somebody who is committed to misunderstanding you.

Amanda Davison (17:47)
Ugh Ugh and that then that is not the love. Then you can't feel like you are safe to be honest in that environment, right? In that relationship. So when that is going on, right, you can go back to what you just said, the love, the truth, and wisdom.

And if you can't would you say that this is a fair statement? Like if if you are in a relationship where you don't feel the safety to practice any of those things, it's just not it's not healthy, would you think? Yeah.

Kris Reece (18:22)
It's not healthy, it's not safe. No, it's

not. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to leave. But we're at least gonna begin with some internal boundaries. Meaning, one of the lessons that I learned when I first started to realize, whoa, my entire life was surrounded by toxic people, and I invited them all in was but it's true. It was like, you know, you keep.

Amanda Davison (18:29)
Yeah.

I don't mean to laugh, but like ⁓

Kris Reece (18:49)
We keep wanting to blame others, like, they're toxic. If I could just get rid of that, if I can just get them out, if I can just have freedom. You know, everywhere we go, there we are. You know, I was part of the issue. I had some of the toxicity of my own. I had equal toxic responses to their toxicity. So in my adaptation, I didn't even realize that I developed some toxicity. So now I lost my train of thought. What was I just gonna say?

Amanda Davison (19:13)
Yeah.

⁓ I'm trying to back it up a bit in my mind. Yeah.

Kris Reece (19:20)
Well, if the Lord wants to bring it back, He will.

But so w we're in this place where if we can't be ourselves, if we're not allowed to have this expression of who we are, I know what I was saying is the lesson that I learned very early on is when they stop listening, you stop talking. That's it. And sometimes that sounds so simple.

Amanda Davison (19:42)
Yeah. Hmm.

Kris Reece (19:47)
But for some reason we feel, especially as women, especially as Christian women, we feel f feel compelled, like I owe it to you. You're you're my husband, you're my mother, you're my child, you're my whatever. I need to fix this, I need to, I need to explain this just a little bit better so you understand. And now for some reason, somehow, I became your mood monitor. I became responsible for your emotional state. And

If you can find the scripture in the Bible that says that, then we can have a discussion, but it's nowhere there. I am not responsible for you. In fact, Galatians 6 says each one needs to carry their own load. So if you're not carrying your own part in this relationship, I can't carry that for you. I can't have truth for both of us. I can't have compassion for both of us.

Amanda Davison (20:20)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. I also, before we forget, or I forget, I want to read it s at least maybe it's somewhere else in Timothy, but this is 2 Timothy chapter 3, verses 1 through 5. It says, but mark this. Yeah, but mark this. There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive.

Kris Reece (20:53)
Yes, that's it.

Amanda Davison (21:05)
Disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. Have nothing to do with them. Yeah.

Kris Reece (21:28)
avoid such people.

It doesn't say

pander to them. It doesn't say go the extra mile. It says avoid them. You know, and we come down to like that broken versus toxic. One of the things I think was really helpful, ask yourself this. A broken person, they could have struggles emotionally, they could be dealing with past trauma. They could react poorly at times. They can have every symptom of a narcissist, but can they self-reflect?

Amanda Davison (22:03)
Hmm.

Kris Reece (22:04)
When you bring something to them, is it immediately projected, deflected, shifted somewhere else, in which case you're dealing with toxic? Are they able to reflect, no matter how harmful it is, are they feeling the conviction that it's probably a brokenness and it might be worth sticking around? Or, at the very least, some gentle boundaries.

Amanda Davison (22:13)
Uh-huh.

I've also

I've also seen people with these narcissistic tendencies use ⁓ an appearance of willingness to change to at the end of the day get what they still want.

⁓ as if another form of manipulation, like they're willing to see and and act like, you know, I will, I see, but it's really rooted in again, it's an act, yeah. So be if you're listening, you know, just be aware of that. Read and and get into counseling yourself. Study the word for yourself. And what what are you wanting to say, Chris, right now?

Kris Reece (22:44)
Yes.

Yes.

It's an act.

One of the hardest things is giving it time. You know, we want so badly to believe those words when the when the parent apologizes or when the spouse repents. We want so badly to believe it. And we're like, okay, so then don't do it again and don't do this. And then we have that love-balming moment, but we jump right back in.

Amanda Davison (23:09)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (23:33)
to the status quo, to what it was before. So they had no consequences for the behavior. They didn't have to suffer any of the losses. And we're too uncomfortable to apply big biblical principles and wait for the fruit.

Amanda Davison (23:50)
Yeah, and I I going back to what you were just saying, I think this is correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I often explain it to women who are wondering, you know

Is this is this healthy? Is it not? ⁓ is when you bring these things up, when their sin is laid before them, when you raise this concern or share, hey, that was hurtful, or that felt manipulative, or whatever the situation is, is there is there a repent, is there a heart posture of that reflection, like you said, that leads to behavior change? And oftentimes you you just again the words can be so empty.

Have they changed? And if not, then that tells you a lot too about the person that you are, you know, in in a relationship with. ⁓ so that's helpful for me too, because words, you know, get so confusing when you're with within a relationship with someone who is manipulative. It gets so confusing.

Kris Reece (24:39)
Yeah.

They do.

Yeah. It is,

but if you look at it i if you can follow the three Rs and if the three Rs are missing, you're in trouble. Number one, it's gotta be a recognition.

So if you're bringing something to somebody and they're not even recognizing it, forget about the other two R's. We're not getting anywhere. So they've got to at least recognize it first. Then there's got to be a repentance. So repentance is not, sorry, or I'm sorry you feel that way, or I'm sorry, but you just did this. No, repentance is a genuine godly sorrow and a turning from behavior. And then it's repair.

Amanda Davison (25:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kris Reece (25:23)
It's not

just, okay, all right, that's swept under the rug. Good, we can move on from this. There's actually a deliberate repair saying, I know I did this, and this is what I'm going to do to make sure that never happens again. And while we're at it, what do you need from me to make sure you never feel that way again? That's what you're looking for. Now, we're we're so many women, I I guarantee, are listening right now, going, What wait, what? Like.

Amanda Davison (25:45)
Yes.

Kris Reece (25:52)
That's even possible in a relationship? Yes, and that's what we should be expecting from people. And we have just distorted these relationships to think they're normal, and it gets even more sad on why. And most of it contributes to the relationships we had before this one.

Amanda Davison (26:12)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Kris Reece (26:15)
So if we grew up in a home that was either neglectful, or maybe they're older parents that were just like, you know, children should be seen and not heard. ⁓ and you had no voice, you had no, you were not allowed to have emotions, or maybe they were just flat out narcissistic, then you're used to this. This is familiar to you. So remember, what we define as normal is just simply the norm. It doesn't mean normal is not healthy. You know, at this point in our society, divorce.

Amanda Davison (26:40)
Right. Right.

Kris Reece (26:44)
is normal. That doesn't mean it's biblical. So yeah, when we look at that, we've got to be very careful in that self-examination. The three Rs are they recognizing, repenting, and repairing?

Amanda Davison (26:47)
Yeah.

Yes, that's so helpful. Then again, to add to that difficulty, then too, is when we have these deep and deeply ingrained beliefs around what our role is in that relationship as a Christian woman. Right? Because okay, I see this within my relationship, but I'm supposed to

Forgive and continue to allow this because, you know, fill in the blank. ⁓ how in all of your studying, how does the word of God guide us to respond to toxic people?

Kris Reece (27:27)
Mm.

Mm.

Amanda Davison (27:40)
You're listening to the Amanda Davison podcast where we ditch the lies and the pressure that's been dumped on us so we can live free and confident being who God actually created us to be. So let's get brave. Just a reminder: hit that like and subscribe. Sign up for my Friday emails, follow me on Instagram, the Amanda Davison. You can also watch on YouTube and shop my Instagram. All is linked below.

This conversation is with Chris Reese. She's a counselor, coach, author, and speaker who has spent over 30 years studying toxic relationships professionally, enduring them personally, and discerning them biblically. Today she helps Christians break free from manipulation, set boundaries that actually stick, and conquer codependency without losing their faith or sanity in the process. She's also the author of her latest book.

Breaking the narcissist's grip, helping readers break free from emotional control and reclaim their God-given life from takers. You can find all of her links below, but just remember her name, Chris with a K R-E-E-C-E. You definitely want to find her on the socials. She's got a huge following. Why? Because she's amazing. The content she shares almost daily is

Phenomenal.

Kris Reece (29:03)
I will tell you what God's Word doesn't do. It never tells us to respond to toxic behavior by abandoning wisdom, truth, or discernment in the name of love. Never does it do that.

Amanda Davison (29:18)
Hmm.

Kris Reece (29:19)
Forgiveness has its place. Restoration has its place. Endurance, forbearing, sacrificing, they all have their place. Never are we commanded to abandon wisdom, truth, and discernment in the name of love. And this is the hard part because I wish there was this stock answer that.

And it angers a lot of women when I say it, but I'm gonna say it anyway, if it's okay. You keep ignoring God's wisdom and it will go away.

Amanda Davison (29:53)
Yep.

Hmm.

Kris Reece (30:02)
So a lot of women they start off with some wisdom. They know what's going on, but they override it with the lies. You're now calling evil good and good evil, and you're participating in this, and you're wondering why God's not giving you wisdom. Well, it's because you didn't act on the wisdom he gave you previously. And you keep going back asking for more, but his word says, do not doubt.

Amanda Davison (30:13)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (30:27)
But just because this toxic person that you know full well is lying to you and is being manipulative is convincing you otherwise, you are like that wave tossed about.

Amanda Davison (30:38)
Yes, I am reminded of my interview that ⁓ I've had with Kimberly Weeks. I don't know if you know her, but you two would be BFFs. She s quoted the script the same scripture, second Timothy three. That's why I knew where that was, because we had just had that conversation. And it is witchcraft. And what she said, you know, she made it so clear.

And I had never heard it said like this, but essentially the way she was saying is that if you continue to participate, or if you continue on in a relationship where this is going on, you are essentially participating with that. You are agreeing with that spirit of witchcraft. And no wonder you can't make sense of up and down, and everything is so confusing. It's not that you are the cause of it, you are not the cause of it, but you've been brought in and you've played that game essentially, and then I love how you.

Kris Reece (31:15)
You are?

Amanda Davison (31:32)
say that that it's almost like quieting the Lord's wisdom then then what are we left with our own devices we're left with our own we can't do that so no wonder you know we feel in bondage or whatever you know however you're feeling who if you're listening and you know that's that no wonder.

Kris Reece (31:51)
so we we've got this this this man who is supposed to be loving you like Christ loved the church, which what did he do? He laid his life down.

He sacrificed. He went to the cross. He didn't sit there and sarcastically tease. He didn't joke around or drop these little nasty comments and then go, ha ha, just joke in. I mean, that really messes with somebody's mind. I find that to be abusive. So now if we want to look at the word abuse, break it down. It's abnormal use. So

Amanda Davison (32:19)
Yes, it is.

Kris Reece (32:29)
Before we started our time today, I had to adjust my my lighting, right? I didn't feel like going into the garage and grabbing my stepladder, so I used my desk. I abused my desk. My desk is not meant to be stand stood on, right? And then, of course, would I be upset if the desk collapsed? I just might. But I was using it for something that it shouldn't have been. And that's really when we break down.

Abuse to those simple terms, it's abnormal use. Then yes, abuse is running rampant.

Amanda Davison (33:07)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (33:09)
Which is why it's so important that we need to be at the feet of Jesus, asking for that wisdom, and then acting on that wisdom.

Amanda Davison (33:14)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm. That's it, that's interesting. And just to clarify so that it's black and white, if you are listening and you are in an unsafe environment, you need to leave. if you are listening and your spouse is physically abusing abusing you, it is not a safe environment for you or your kids if you have kids. ⁓ yes, yes.

Kris Reece (33:39)
Even verbally abusing you, even mentally abusing you. These

are insults, these are these are little digs disguised as jokes. Th this is this is destructive.

Amanda Davison (33:45)
Yes.

Yes.

And that can be in relationships again with anybody, your family, your friends. So you do not have to engage with that. That's what I would say the answer I would give to how do we respond as Christians, and I'm sure tell me if you disagree with this, but we don't participate with it. So part not participating with a spouse who

maybe I would say crosses the line into emotional abuse and is name-calling once in a while, which again is not okay. I'm not saying that's okay. But for you to be aware that you do not participate with that dynamic in this cycle, you don't laugh it off, you say, Don't call me that or you leave instead of maybe in the past you've stayed and continued to

Kris Reece (34:44)
try to convince

them that that wasn't right and that was hurtful. Nope. Just remove yourself.

Amanda Davison (34:48)
Yeah.

Yeah. So like you're you're disrupting the pattern, the cycle. You're saying I will not participate with that, the ways that I have. ⁓ you won't stoop to their level and give it back, you know, all those things. So it's like maybe like how because cause Jesus did not participate with abuse of any kind. Yeah.

Kris Reece (34:55)
That's right.

That's right.

Mm-mm. He walked away.

Amanda Davison (35:09)
And so, you know, I just I wanted to make that clear too for anyone, but ⁓ we don't have to participate with it. And yeah, go ahead.

Kris Reece (35:18)
Yeah, so one of the things that's coming to mind is when we talk about not participating, the first thing that comes to mind is boundaries. Getting them to stop. That is your first mistake. Trying to get them to stop something is not a boundary. That's a rule. So don't talk to me that way. That means that I now need to depend on you complying with that request.

Amanda Davison (35:24)
Yes.

Yep. Yep, they will not. Yeah. Yep.

Kris Reece (35:46)
In order for me to be okay. No, no, I'm gonna be okay either way. When you talk to me that way, I'm leaving the room. I'm not even discussing it anymore, I'm not even pointing out anymore. This is a pattern that you continue to speak to me this way, and when you do it from now on, I'm leaving the room. And now a lot of times what we start to see is that behavior escalate. They'll chase after you, they'll they'll bust I had somebody bust down my door, and then they were shocked when I called the police.

Amanda Davison (36:14)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (36:14)
So

we have to escalate now the boundaries, not they push the boundaries until you cave. That boundary has to continue to get escalated. And this is where a lot of Christian women get stuck. Like, ⁓ you know, I I can't, I can't I I I can't call the police on my sister. ⁓ I had this story that I wrote in my latest book. It was about this woman whose mother

Was just so intrusive all the time. She would just come over constantly, make demands, and she would just start to raise her children right in front of her, just completely disregard what she wanted. And she finally put up a boundary with her mother. She says, Mom, I need you to call me before you come over from now on. So she did that. And the mother was just like, Pfft, I'm not listening to that. So usually her front door was always open. So now it's locked. So instead of the mother getting the hint,

And knocking on the door, which even at that point, I don't know, you and me we'd be like, shoot, that's embarrassing. It had to get to this, like, ⁓ right? No, she didn't. She's banging on the door, demanding that she comes in. I'm your mother. How dare you lock me out like this? And she's going on and on and and the woman is yelling from the other door, Mom, I asked you to call me.

Amanda Davison (37:13)
Right.

Kris Reece (37:29)
We are just about to have dinner. I just want to take my granddaughter out for ice cream. And she picks up the potted plant from the porch and throws it through the front window.

And she climbed in through the front window.

So I was like, I I'm sitting there now, I I've been doing this for a long time. I'm sitting there on the edge of my seat. I'm like, So what did you do? Like she let the mother take her child out for ice cream.

Amanda Davison (37:47)
Yeah, what did she do?

Kris Reece (37:53)
Nope. And I I asked I said, why did you not call the police? She goes, On my mother? Yeah. And this is where we have that mental block because this title trumps the toxicity.

Amanda Davison (38:08)
Wow.

Kris Reece (38:09)
So we think the person or their title or whatever position they hold in our lives just gives them carte blanche to treat us however they want to. And that's where the boundaries don't need to just get put in place, they need to stick. You've gotta hold that line.

Amanda Davison (38:28)
And not have it be

I love that you clarify that because it cannot be based on or dependent on their behavior. We will choose our behavior in response to what they decide to do or not do. That's a boundary. Yeah. And you Chris teaches so much on boundaries. So again, all of her links are below. You have got to go check her out because there's so much. You're gonna learn so much from her.

Kris Reece (38:40)
That's right.

Amanda Davison (38:52)
that is that is very, very helpful. you say to stop helping the toxic person. Is that what you're referencing then when we're like having this discussion? Like stop helping them.

Kris Reece (39:05)
There's so many different levels of when I should say helping the toxic person. So that would be more enabling them. So if I don't if I don't put down consequences, if I don't ⁓ set my boundaries and actually stick with them, then I am actually enabling your behavior. So helping the toxic person means that's even a step higher. So I'm now getting into

Enabling your sin. I'm getting into potentially rescuing you. And we start to get into some what we refer to as codependent behavior, where I'm actually co-participating, not just in agreement out of fear, which is usually what happens. It's I'm afraid to lose the relationship. Whatever the reasons, they're usually grounded in fear. So we

We start to participate by not correcting. But as far as helping them, now we become almost a co-conspirator. We become the person that is responsible for fixing them, responsible for explaining, responsible for carrying their emotions, responsible for bearing their consequences. And that's where a big part of that codependency comes in. So when you find yourself

Amanda Davison (40:16)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (40:34)
Making excuses to the outside, meanwhile, you know something's going on here, you're actually helping this person remain in sin. And I know we're we're kind of getting low on our time. I wanted to, if you don't mind, going back to the that one word that we talked about. There's one word where we tend to get very confused, like, okay, I know this is a problem, but

I should. When you catch yourself using that word should, that needs to be a yellow flag for you. Because that's usually an indication that you are overriding God's wisdom with some distorted lie.

Amanda Davison (41:18)
Well can you say that again?

Kris Reece (41:21)
When you use the word should after God has given you wisdom, then you are likely overriding his wisdom with some distorted lie. So let's take my my old client, for example. She's she knows her mother was a problem. I mean, this woman was a train wreck, and she continued to disrespect her boundaries, disrespect her home. She knew she was a problem.

But I should be honoring my mother. Catch those words? So there is gonna be some truth to it, but we take that truth and now we override the wisdom. So there's a distortion right in there. Like, first of all, let's even dissect what emote honor would look like. And I know we don't have time for that today, but what does honor actually mean? Or, you know, I I know he's I know he's, you know, nasty to me, but.

Amanda Davison (41:54)
Yeah.

Kris Reece (42:20)
You know, the Bible says I should forgive. Okay, the minute we start overriding what you know is unhealthy, ungodly, or just flat out wicked, that's a red flag. We need to raise that flag and go, wait a minute, what am I trying to justify? What am I trying to avoid? What am I not understanding properly? And that's usually what it comes down to. It's something we're not understanding fully.

Amanda Davison (42:46)
Wow, that is so helpful. Ladies Chris Reese, you gotta go check her out. She is it why don't you tell us about your new book as well, please?

Kris Reece (42:55)
⁓ I was I had such fun writing this. I use that term loosely. It's it's called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. It's the Christian's Guide to Cutting the Strings of Manipulation, Setting Boundaries That Stick, and Reclaiming Your Life from Takers. And it's more than just pointing out their flaws and who they are, and it's more than just about narcissists. It's really how to be able to handle all of these difficult people in your life.

With godly wisdom and grace and still walking away with your identity intact.

Amanda Davison (43:29)
Amazing. I think I have like a hundred women I'm gonna buy it for because it's gonna be so helpful. thank you, Chris, so much for being with us. I love you, I miss you, and we appreciate you.

Kris Reece (43:40)
I know. It's

been so great connecting with you and I so appreciate you allowing me to connect with your audience.